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wednesday_whimsyI’ve seen the odd comment here and there, following A Scandal in Belgravia, about Steven Moffat and his treatment of woman and how you're a bad person and a worse woman if you like it. Those comments have made me back quickly away before I exploded with rage, but they got me thinking and today, finally, it spilled out into this.
I’ve been watching the TV shows Steven Moffat has written my whole life. I’ve always been impressed by his female characters. I’ve always felt connected to them. Lynda Day, was my first ever love. She was the first ever character I saw and thought "WOW". I still watch Press Gang now, because it was a great show and it had some great characters and a lot of those characters (including the main one) were women.
When I look at Amy and River in Doctor Who and compare them to Rose and Martha, what I see are very strong, witty women. Not snivelling girls who were always dependent on The Doctor (and hopelessly in love with him). Steven Moffat made me love Doctor Who again, and his characters to me, male or female, have always been well-written and complex.
What I want from TV, or films, or books, is interesting characters and a good story. I don’t actually care if they’re men or women. I don’t think Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy was sexist because it there were no major female roles. It’s a good story. The characters are interesting. Their motivations are interesting. I don’t need to see women in a story to connect to it and I think it’s patronising to force a female character into something because people seem to think women can’t enjoy stories without them. I’d rather watcher Tinker, Tailor.. than Sex and the City.
And that’s because no person is the same as any other person. No one thinks or feels exactly the same things about something as as any other person. No one takes away the same message from something, as any other person. It's all subjective. It's all up for debate. I don’t think it’s fair to make people feel bad for enjoying something.
For example, Twilight may be, in my opinion, a blight on the world and Bella may be a terrible role model for girls, but clearly a lot of girls identify with her. A lot of girls read those books and think, "that's exactly how I feel." Is that wrong? Is it okay to say to teenage girl “you’re not supposed to feel that way?" Is that any more empowering? I don’t agree with a lot of the fundamental concepts of the books, but surely it’s a little bit condescending to assume that girls/young women are going to be swayed by romantic fluff. My sister loves the Twilight series and yet she’s one of the most independent and strong-willed people I know.
Alternatively, people continually tell me that Buffy was a great role model, but I have tons of issues with that. I love Buffy as a character (and as a female character), because she’s flawed, and has a lot of depth. As a role model, people seem to overlook the way men made her weak. She was always falling apart as soon as a man looked at her the wrong way.
Why are we looking for role models in TV shows anyway? What's wrong with us that we have to aspire to be like Buffy? Can’t we aspire to be doctors or writers or scientists? Can’t our role models be parents and teachers? Does all TV have to come with a message or teach us something? Can't we separate fictional and non-fictional women? I have no trouble telling the difference between fictional and non-fictional men.
I know women are complex beings, because I am one. I assume that men are complex beings, because they’re human. There are a lot of excellent female characters on TV, and there are a lot of dreadful female characters on TV. But the same can be said for male characters. If I was a man, I could be just as annoyed that TV paints the majority of men as either beer-swilling, girl chasing, sports addicts or geeky, losers who watch too much Star Wars and don’t know how to impress a woman.
And here's the thing, I may not like female characters who love shoes and shopping and have to have a boyfriend to be happy or constantly complain about how men suck, but I know those women exist in the real world. I work with them. I went to school with them. They are real people. Do “good” female characters have to be single, working women, who never do anything wrong? Women make mistakes all the time. I make mistakes all the time. We all do.
Instead of saying female characters should be good role models, why not say they should be good characters? Irene Adler (bringing this back to "Sherlock") was an excellent character. She had layers. She had motivations. She was complex and messed up. Speaking as a woman, I think she was interesting and I thought what she told us about Sherlock was interesting. I don't need all the women on TV to fit some feminist ideal, because hey, not all women do.
I've been watching Mad Men recently and I have so many problems with it, sometimes I’m not sure why I’m watching it. I hate most of the characters, men and women. But it’s actually an excellent show. It’s well acted. It’s well written. It looks amazing. And watching it, I think, thank God I wasn't born then, because I've never once in my life thought I couldn't do something because I'm a woman. I’ve never once felt that anyone has ever put me down or knocked me back or stopped me doing something because I'm a woman. I can do anything I want to do.
I don’t need TV to prove that to me.
I’ve been watching the TV shows Steven Moffat has written my whole life. I’ve always been impressed by his female characters. I’ve always felt connected to them. Lynda Day, was my first ever love. She was the first ever character I saw and thought "WOW". I still watch Press Gang now, because it was a great show and it had some great characters and a lot of those characters (including the main one) were women.
When I look at Amy and River in Doctor Who and compare them to Rose and Martha, what I see are very strong, witty women. Not snivelling girls who were always dependent on The Doctor (and hopelessly in love with him). Steven Moffat made me love Doctor Who again, and his characters to me, male or female, have always been well-written and complex.
What I want from TV, or films, or books, is interesting characters and a good story. I don’t actually care if they’re men or women. I don’t think Tinker, Tailor, Solider, Spy was sexist because it there were no major female roles. It’s a good story. The characters are interesting. Their motivations are interesting. I don’t need to see women in a story to connect to it and I think it’s patronising to force a female character into something because people seem to think women can’t enjoy stories without them. I’d rather watcher Tinker, Tailor.. than Sex and the City.
And that’s because no person is the same as any other person. No one thinks or feels exactly the same things about something as as any other person. No one takes away the same message from something, as any other person. It's all subjective. It's all up for debate. I don’t think it’s fair to make people feel bad for enjoying something.
For example, Twilight may be, in my opinion, a blight on the world and Bella may be a terrible role model for girls, but clearly a lot of girls identify with her. A lot of girls read those books and think, "that's exactly how I feel." Is that wrong? Is it okay to say to teenage girl “you’re not supposed to feel that way?" Is that any more empowering? I don’t agree with a lot of the fundamental concepts of the books, but surely it’s a little bit condescending to assume that girls/young women are going to be swayed by romantic fluff. My sister loves the Twilight series and yet she’s one of the most independent and strong-willed people I know.
Alternatively, people continually tell me that Buffy was a great role model, but I have tons of issues with that. I love Buffy as a character (and as a female character), because she’s flawed, and has a lot of depth. As a role model, people seem to overlook the way men made her weak. She was always falling apart as soon as a man looked at her the wrong way.
Why are we looking for role models in TV shows anyway? What's wrong with us that we have to aspire to be like Buffy? Can’t we aspire to be doctors or writers or scientists? Can’t our role models be parents and teachers? Does all TV have to come with a message or teach us something? Can't we separate fictional and non-fictional women? I have no trouble telling the difference between fictional and non-fictional men.
I know women are complex beings, because I am one. I assume that men are complex beings, because they’re human. There are a lot of excellent female characters on TV, and there are a lot of dreadful female characters on TV. But the same can be said for male characters. If I was a man, I could be just as annoyed that TV paints the majority of men as either beer-swilling, girl chasing, sports addicts or geeky, losers who watch too much Star Wars and don’t know how to impress a woman.
And here's the thing, I may not like female characters who love shoes and shopping and have to have a boyfriend to be happy or constantly complain about how men suck, but I know those women exist in the real world. I work with them. I went to school with them. They are real people. Do “good” female characters have to be single, working women, who never do anything wrong? Women make mistakes all the time. I make mistakes all the time. We all do.
Instead of saying female characters should be good role models, why not say they should be good characters? Irene Adler (bringing this back to "Sherlock") was an excellent character. She had layers. She had motivations. She was complex and messed up. Speaking as a woman, I think she was interesting and I thought what she told us about Sherlock was interesting. I don't need all the women on TV to fit some feminist ideal, because hey, not all women do.
I've been watching Mad Men recently and I have so many problems with it, sometimes I’m not sure why I’m watching it. I hate most of the characters, men and women. But it’s actually an excellent show. It’s well acted. It’s well written. It looks amazing. And watching it, I think, thank God I wasn't born then, because I've never once in my life thought I couldn't do something because I'm a woman. I’ve never once felt that anyone has ever put me down or knocked me back or stopped me doing something because I'm a woman. I can do anything I want to do.
I don’t need TV to prove that to me.
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(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 09:42 pm (UTC)I've not been stopped from doing something, but the other two? Oh hell fucking yes. A million fucking times yes. My adviser in college is the most sexist dickhead I've ever come across, he definitely knocked me back a bit. You're pretty damn lucky for never experiencing anything like that.
Most of the complaints I've come across regarding Irene Adler in the show were more that she wasn't as close to the book character as they would have liked. Me, having never read the books, didn't catch that.
I enjoy a good story as much as the next, and I'm not sure what the attitude/environment is over there, but over here, getting strong intelligent women on TV or in movies these days is beyond rare in the states. Which might be why I watch a lot of UK TV. =P And if anyone thinks Sex and the City is feminist just because the four main roles were women, uhhh....they watched a different show than I did.(I never saw the movies, don't intend to either.)
So I agree that we don't need to have women in major roles to enjoy a story, but over here, anything with a woman in the lead role is automatically Not Suitable For Dudes. Most guys will rip on Sex and the City having never seen a single episode, it's just girl TV and they're too above that crap. They apparently need to have a man in the main role to enjoy it at all. *eyes roll into back of my head now*
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 10:25 pm (UTC)Maybe I just purposefully avoid shows which include female characters I dislike, but the ones I watch now do feature strong, intelligent women. And I watch more US TV than I do British TV. I never liked Sex and the City. Personally I thought that was an awful depiction of women, probably because I don't know any women like that.
I do agree that men shouldn't need to have a man in a main role to enjoy something, but I don't think that's as true here, at least not with the people I know.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 10:13 pm (UTC)But yeah, absolutely, people are entitled to enjoy the characters they enjoy. Sometimes I get tired of all the men and not enough full-fledged women and many many other things (my issues with Game of Thrones, let me show you them). And sometimes I like to discuss the problems I see (like the way stalking is made romantic and normalizing that kind of behaviour might not be a good thing, things like that). But if other people don't want to and just want to enjoy things they enjoy, hey, perfectly fine! I like that too! I even have a new coping strategy, how to be a fan of problematic things.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 10:32 pm (UTC)See, everyone takes something different away from it? :D
And I'm not saying that TV shows don't have problems and that all TV treats women well (or men well). I get angry and I like to debate. I wouldn't really be in fandom otherwise. But I don't think that just because one person has a problem with something that should make it problematic.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 10:45 pm (UTC)Like what? I've been sitting here trying to think of any example of something I've seen where the stalker hasn't been some clearly deranged psycho girl. And I'm kind of curious!
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-13 11:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-15 11:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-16 02:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-14 07:28 am (UTC)I was a teenager in the 1960s and my entire generation struggled against those expectations though the fight for women's rights was already gaining ground.
My mother especially had to deal with the sexism of the time being a beautiful woman with a career. Still her Mum was a suffragette in her day and raised her with an attitude of strength and that passed on to me in turn.
(no subject)
Date: 2012-01-14 01:05 pm (UTC)I haven't watched SH, but this applies to a lot of series. Thank you for saying what I couldn't :)